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EPISODE THIRTEEN- THERAPY FOR THE THERAPIST

"You can describe Yoga as the practice of, from moment to moment, assessing what's going on in your environment, and then determining what the appropriate response is for you, with your earthsuit."
- Marcel Allbritton, Ph. D

Host of Doing Differently & Founder of Core Resonance Works

 
Episode 13: Therapy for the Therapist
A Conversation with Janell Kalifey


 

Understanding why you have certain unsupportive patterns is one thing, but it is a different matter to actually engage in the experiential process of changing those behaviors. In this episode of Doing Differently, Marcel welcomes Janell Kalifey, a psychotherapist who is also one of his Yoga Therapy clients. Marcel and Janell discuss the role of a Yoga Therapy practice as a complement to Therapy and Psychoanalysis.


Janell shares her experience with Yoga Therapy and discusses how it has helped her personally and professionally as a therapist. She discusses how having a regular movement and breathing practice helps her in her own work as a practitioner and how this can help other practitioners as well. Together, Marcel and Janell discuss the importance of having a mind-body practice that is clinical in nature and designed to specifically meet the needs of the individual. They also share their appreciation for psychology, neuroscience, and the unconscious mind and bring this knowledge to bear within the context of Yoga Therapy.


Here are a few highlights from the conversation with Janell that will help you understand the connection between Yoga Therapy and Psychoanalysis:


  • Marcel worked with Janell to develop a specific practice for her that became a reference point for how the mind-body approach in therapy works. She has since referred some of her own clients to Marcel to help them create their own practices


  • Janell has always been interested in meditation and Yoga

    • She often felt bombarded by all the healthy things that she felt she should be doing

    • What stands out about the practice that Marcel developed for her is that it is individualized, and it brings movement, breath, and mediation together

      • This practice is specific to her needs


  • There's all these things we can do with our lifestyle, and it can get overwhelming. Marcel has always appreciated the approach of creating a practice for someone's specific "earthsuit"- for someone's body

    • A big part of what's happening when we do this practice every day is it's helping us regulate our system and give us more capacity


  • Because she has experienced this process, Janell can speak from a place of knowing and understanding before recommending this to her clients


  • Healing comes back to this idea: When we have a practice designed for us, that is on the level of the body and breath, it connects us more intimately to our system

    • It gives us an even greater awareness of our connection to and working from and with our earthsuit


  • Yoga Therapy is using the knowledge and tools of Yoga to help people with their own health issues and wellbeing and quality of life


 

If you want to learn more about how engaging in your own therapeutic practice can help you professionally as a therapist, check out Episode 8: "You Are The Technology"- How a Guided and Supported Practice Makes You a Better Healing Practitioner: A Conversation with Megan Murk.

 

Janell Kalifey (LCSW) is a psychotherapist. She earned a BS in Psychology as well as a Master of Social Work from Tulane University. Shortly after earning her clinical license from the Louisiana State Board of Social Work Examiners in 2001, Janell opened her private psychotherapy practice. In addition to running her private practice, Janell currently serves as a group psychotherapist at Atlas Psychiatry, a consultant for the Tulane Institute of Sports Medicine, a psychotherapy consultant for film productions, and an assoiciate faculty member of the New Orleans-Birmingham Psychoanalytic Center. She is also a member of the Association of Applied Sports Psychology.


To learn more about Janell and her work, please visit her website: janellkalifey.com.

 

Doing Differently - Episode 13 - Transcript


Please excuse any typos. This transcript was generated by an AI program.


[00:00:00] Marcel: Today my guess is Janell Kalifey.. And she is someone who came to see me as a yoga therapist, and she is also a therapist in the greater New Orleans area.

And I would like to start out by having her share with you all a bit about what she does and what she's interested in in terms of her work.


Janell: Yeah, thanks Marcel for having me here. I'm really excited to do this. I, as you said, I'm a, a practitioner in New Orleans. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and have been in practice for about 25 years.

I have done a variety of things with my practice and, I see adults and young adults for psychotherapy. My training has been by way of psychoanalysis, so I'm do psychoanalytic psychotherapy, which is like a deeper inside oriented therapy. And Most recently, I guess over the last 10 years or so, I've gotten into working with [00:01:00] athletes.

So I do sport performance work and athlete mental health work, which has been really interesting. And, you know, it's and that has kind of shifted me toward more interest in working with the body in addition to the mind. So. . Yeah, that's my private practice. I'm also on the faculty of the New Orleans Birmingham Psychoanalytic Center.


Marcel: Great. Well welcome. It's good to have you here. At one point I realized that with respects to how I find clients as a yoga therapist, I came upon this idea of trying out focusing having therapists as clients and it's worked out really well and I've loved it and it's been really rewarding. And three really great things about it is that I get to develop relationships with therapists , who are healing practitioners, and those are my people healing practitioners.

And , I get to share with them some of [00:02:00] these mind body principles from a perspective of them also having a practice. So the insight I'm sharing with them is experiential and my experience with a lot of. , these mind body approaches has been that the only way you can really understand it is to integrate it experientially so that the concept that's being explained to you is connected to an actual experience you're having.

What's kind of presents a little bit of a problem if most of the opportunities for training in mind body approaches for practitioners are just like weekend workshops. Short courses and with folks like Janell, we work together to develop a practice for her. That then becomes sort of a experiential reference point for explaining how the mind body approach using attention, breath, and movement works, and [00:03:00] then also if it works for her, which I think it has. Mm-hmm. , she refers clients to me and that's a very supportive referral.

Yeah. So it's been interesting for me, having you as a client. Some of the things you've shared about your experiences as someone who is a therapist and uses this psychoanalytic approach, and also like you already have a pretty good foundation of how a lot of this works in terms of the connection between movement and breathing and regulating the system and mindfulness so, I'm interested in what your experience has been in having a personal practice that you do every day that we work together to create and how that, how that's different from, from mind body approaches before you had a regular personal practice.


[00:04:00] Janell: You know, I've always had an interest in this and various times , a meditation practice, a yoga practice, you know, breathing, you get, I think we get bombarded with all the things that we ought to be doing.

Mm-hmm. , right. That are good for us. And, and you also have to exercise and work out. And it's like, this could be half your day doing all of these things. And so what I appreciate so much about the approach that you bring to it in the practice that you've developed for me is, , it's individualized.

It's about what I need. So I'm not just following something I've read in a book about all the things to be doing, but this is what my body needs and it brings it all together. So it's the movement, it's the breath, it's the, the meditation piece at the end. And so, you know, I I'm a doer and I like to, to be working on things and working on myself.

Sometimes it can become [00:05:00] overwhelming. And so I think with your practice, it brings it in, you know, kind of one you know, program, right? That is specific to me and what it is that I'm looking for. And so that has been really helpful. It's . Yeah, I mean, it's just, it, it's like, it kind of brings it all together and I think it's one of the things that I've appreciated so much about working with you is that you also have an appreciation for psychology and neuroscience and the unconscious mind piece of it and and bring all of those elements together, which.

People don't, maybe they only know yoga or they only know psychology or, you know, and so it's been fun for me to work with somebody like you who, who gets it all, you know? Yeah.


Marcel: I love the way you described how your experience of it brings it all together, because one of the things I've observed in doing this work over the years, like you [00:06:00] just made a point about.

There's all these things you can do. Mindfulness, practice, running, diet, lifestyle, and like it can get overwhelming. And one of the things I've always appreciated a great deal about this approach of, as you described very creating a practice for someone whereby the practice is created for them. I like to say it's for their earth suit, for their body, for their, for their intellect, for their personality, for their emotions. Speaking to how we can get overwhelmed. A big part of what's happening when we do this practice every day is it's helping to regulate our system and give us more capacity to have discernment about what's appropriate for us to do, because without some kind of regular regulation of our earth suit, of our system, we get pulled in all these [00:07:00] directions and our intentions may be really good and we may be doing all these things that are supportive, quote unquote supportive for us, but it's way too much. Mm-hmm. . And so I like the way you described how it's helped you because when I hear it, one of the things that your, your, kind of implicitly suggesting is that it helps with that discernment about how to see things. , I'm interested in you saying a bit more about what you mean by like, in, in that it brings it all together,


Janell: Well, for me, it takes out. , the trying to do it all right, I should do this five minute breath practice. Mm-hmm. this yoga practice, this meditation, and, you know, so it's, I mean, having this program kind of eliminates some decision fatigue around, what am I gonna do today?

So that has been really helpful. I, I think it touches on, on. , you know, when I'm doing the practice, I can [00:08:00] experience mind, body, and spirit of it. Right. Because you were, I mean, you're moving, there's also the what's going on in your mind and the awareness of that.

And then the, you know, as we have designed for me, the ending of, you know the reflections mm-hmm. that I do, and. comes up. So I'm aware of, you know, and when I'm doing it, sometimes I'll like, have insights, you know, like in the same way that I may be running and have a thought that come into mind about a client of mind or like a problem solving something that I don't even know that I'm trying to solve this problem.

Yeah. Or get insight into something and it, you know, it will appear. Yeah. So it's. , you know, and then for, for my practice, we've incorporated the spiritual component, you know, in it too. So, so it touches on a lot of, a lot of that is important to me. Yeah. And makes me feel whole and [00:09:00] well, you know, yeah. In terms of wellbeing.


Marcel: Yeah, I just mentioned body. Intellect, personality and emotion. So this is kind of a, an everyday way of describing the different dimensions of our, our, I use the phrase earth suit, this body we're in. And the other day somebody asked me, when I said that they go, well, where's spirit?

And I said, what's in all of them ? And you know, the way you just described it suggests that I think there is also like, one of the reasons the practic. Works the way it does in terms of how you describe that, you get these insights, is that part of that is by design, because when we calm, when we do a practice, , I started to say, when we calm our system down mm-hmm.

but Janell, Janell knows, I'm always, we're always having these conversations about how it's the practice that's calming you down. It's [00:10:00] not you, you're not forcing your system to calm down. When our system calms down our, our physiological body and our breath, and in our mind, we become much more receptive.

So I, I often have insights. towards the end of my practice like I use this expression of a signal to noise ratio. The signal to noise ratio is higher. It's almost like our tune, our tuning is better because we can, we can connect with insights. And I think also there's a kind of movement.

Gross to subtle. You know, you start the practice with some larger movements aligning the movement with the breath, and then the movements gradually are smaller and smaller, so it becomes more from being about the movement and the breathing to being about the breathing.

And then it becomes more to being about like the meditation, the connection, and then like even more into [00:11:00] something much more subtle like.


Janell: Well, and this reminds me a lot of how the psychotherapy process works too, because when clients come in, they may be coming in for some obvious problem they're having.

Right? The gross problem, big problem. But the real work is done in the subtle. aspects of it, you know, the, the relationship that evolves, defenses that you, you know, experience and help the client navigate. And so I, I've, I appreciate the practice too, cuz it has so many, some overlaps between it and doing psychoanalytic work, I mean, part of the.

The training to get there is your own psychoanalysis, right? Mm-hmm. . So going to, I mean, for me it was being an analysis every day, five days a week for years. Mm-hmm. , right? I mean, that's kind of part of the, you know, the training is the experience mm-hmm. of doing it so that then [00:12:00] you can do it. Yeah. And, and it's similar to, you know, the meditation world where, you know, I know people will say with the lineage, You know, so it's like my analyst was Soandso.

Yeah. And their analyst was Soandso and his analyst was Soandso. . . And so there is this passing on. , . Passing down. But so there's a lot of, for me it's a lot, you know, I see a lot of the comparisons of, of the two.


Marcel: Yeah, I, I think like, as you describe it in terms of functionally how it's working, it's similar.

And I think that's also to speak to the notion of subtle. . This is also how we understand not just to work with the subtle with clients, but to, to be able to understand it even before that has a lot to do with the context we're in and the experiences we're having. And that like I think both of our approaches involved us being put [00:13:00] into a process.

The experiences we went through shaped us so that we have a certain capacity to do what we're doing, and it's more of like almost an intuitive emotional understanding. , they came from the experience as much as it is about the theories and the information, that sort of thing.


Janell: Yeah. Absolutely. And it's it brings an authenticity to it also. I mean, it's like I, you know, having gone through all that analysis, it's gives me, you. helps me understand the client that's sitting across from me on the couch, right? . And you know, the same way with doing the practice, like seeing you when I came to see you was, let me try this out for myself.

I thought it could be good for some of my clients, but I need to do it first so I can speak from a place of, you know, know. , having experienced it before I [00:14:00] start recommending it. for someone else. And so that has really helped because now when I refer clients and we talk about it, like the practice, I know what they're talking about.

I also know how hard it is to develop a consistency around it. Yeah. Yeah. And the resistance. That they will talk about that. I also know firsthand for me about Yeah. You know, how all the excuses we can make cuz we don't have time to do something that takes 10 minutes, you know, . Yeah. So it helps me understand them more that I have had this experience.


Marcel: It's almost like the, , process or the container the client is in. It's involving more than just you and the client, . It's involving you and another healing practitioner and, actually three processes like me and my process, and you and your process and the client and their process.

And you know, to your point about it helping you. That's [00:15:00] one of the reasons why I want to focus on having therapists as clients because in, in ancient lineages the practitioner is the technology. So like if you look at modern western medicine you see that a lot. There's a lot of technology externally and there's a lot of inform and in ancient lineages, the technology is what is seeing. And so part of that is that when you become a practice person, when you have a practice design for you and you do it regularly, . You do on a regular basis. Over time, it has this cumulative effect of re regulating your system and giving you greater capacity to actually see more clearly and and understand yourself more deeply.

Like the way you were just describing that with a client. We are always seeing through our own stuff. And [00:16:00] like working on that and being knowledgeable about that and understanding that helps us actually see much more clearly somebody that's in front of us that we're working with.

We all have patterning and identification that we have inside of us that we're trying to heal from, to put it blunt. and plainly at some point we had these habits and ways of identifying that kept us safe or were useful to us, and then our environment changes and those habits are still there and we're still doing them.

So part of the healing is helping our, our system realized that this is not, that this environment is not the same as the one we were in before . And you and I have talked about. from my perspective you can understand why you are a certain way, but in order to, to actually change and, and behave and perceive and experience differently, [00:17:00] the only way like I've observed for that shift to take place is to have newer experiences.

So in other words, the, just the understanding of why doesn't really change us. It's super helpful and it can be a service part of a foundation, but for almost say like the, the part of us that's only going by feel, not by specific circumstance. It's like, this feels like that. So it must be that. And the only way to change that is to give ourselves new experiences so that discernment is made between this and that. So I'm interested in, in like how you talk about that or see how something like this kind of approach, having a personal practice can support that process.


Janell: Well, one of the things that I always hear from clients is, okay, well now that I know this, now what, right? Life is still the [00:18:00] same. I'm still, you know, feeling the same. And I think as I have done this work for a while now, I mean, as a therapist, 25 years and learned and, you know, I see some of the limitations to talk therapy.

Right. I mean, I have myself had a transformative experience and psychoanalysis and I think it certainly can do that, but I have I think arrived at a place where I feel you have to also do other things. Body things. right. Or movement or engage in different behaviors. Yeah. Right. In order to to, to take that insight and then go to the next level with you know, and so it's like you can read a book, you can read as much as you want about, you know, meditation. But for it to be effective, you actually have to do it.


Marcel: Yeah. You know, one of the ways I think about this is we talk about stress. And to me, what happens when [00:19:00] we're stressed is that we pretty much default to pattern.

When you're stressed or you don't have much capacity, you're not really, your system is not really going well. How can I do this differently? How can I see this differently? No, it's going automatically. Okay, here's what it feels like and here's what we do when it feels like that. And so to me, what's really powerful about like having a practice that's designed for you, specif.

to, to help regulate your system. And to help have more capacity. Part of what happens is when you have a practice and you get that regulation capacity to tie all this together, you can do much more with what you have come to understand.

Like you can work with it and from it, but without that compliment , it doesn't need to be yoga therapy, but without some kind of like mind body like [00:20:00] practice. And I think that what I've learned is the effectiveness is pretty dependent on it being a clinical process so that it's one-on-one .


Janell: , you know, for a long time before I became more informed you know, I would with clients like, well, have you tried yoga? And I would hear from clients, I went to yoga, didn't like it, it didn't work. Or, you know, and then I came to learn about like trauma in yoga, right.

And how. yoga poses or overstimulating for clients. Absolutely. And you know, so as I've come to learn more, I'm understanding my clients more and like, okay, that's why some working with someone who knows that, or maybe you need a one-on-one person, like, you know, that's what I think is so wonderful about this practice is because the practice that you do is that it, it takes that into account.


Marcel: You know, this is what you're speaking to has, it's I don't know quite how to describe it, but for some reason, [00:21:00] approaches with mindfulness and breath and movement have almost been relegated to the use of methods and techniques that are suggested to people as opposed to using all of this ancient wisdom we have about movement and breath from all these lineages, like Chinese medicine and you know, Tai Chi, Chiang yoga, all these, these approaches that what's distinctly different is I learned a whole system and you know, for example, mindfulness is not a whole system.

Mindfulness is part of Buddhism. It's certain methods and techniques and approaches that were taken from Buddhism and then adapted so they could be used effectively in a modern western context and mindfulness. A lot about it is very effective and it's, it's awesome stuff, but it's not the same as coming from a whole system.

[00:22:00] Like, like, you know, when you look at psychoanalysis, it's a whole. . It's not just method and techniques and certain perspectives for understanding things. And to me, what I've learned is this is really important because the movement and the breathing has a lot of subtlety to it. And it's like delightful for me to hear you describe your experience, cuz this is exactly.

I love working with you and I want to work with more people like you because it's really about understanding the subtle dynamics of attention, movement and breath, and how that can, can help us, you know in our life as people, but also as practitioners. And I really love what you said about too, about how given that you have your own practice, and I'm like explaining to you what some of these principles from my lineage what's happening with them and [00:23:00] how and why they're used. And you also have your own foundation and your own work that you've done. You can put that together, but it gives you a deeper understanding of how to make recommendations to clients in a way that it's more effective. It's more contextual.


Janell: Well, and I think you're highlighting what I think is, is really a key component to all of this, which is the relationship, the relationship that I form with my clients that you form with yours, and. . You know, if it's just about having the knowledge right, then I wouldn't have a job because there are thousands of self-help books.

Right. . Right, right. And give you all of these, you know, five point plans. To heal yourself, but it doesn't work for the majority of people. , the healing is done, I think ultimately in the relationship. someone and the, the relationship that allows for feeling safe and trusting, and to go to that next level, that [00:24:00] deeper level, and to be able to let your guard down and let this person in or this practice.

So I think a lot of the healing is done in that way, which is subtle. Yeah. Which is subtle. And my clients all, I mean, like in psychotherapy, things change for people. You can start like observing yourself differently. And it'll say, I don't understand how this is happening, or I don't know what we're doing, but something's happening.

And I think the practice is a similar way. And when people ask me what's, you know, well what are y'all doing? And it's like, or how is this working? And it's like, it's really hard to articulate it because it is at a subtle place. And it's also in the context of the relationship that we have established.


Marcel: I've been impressed by your openness to how. You also need support as a practitioner. And in fact, I've noticed that among all really competent healing practitioners, they are, are open to [00:25:00] that and most good ones also have a team of people that support them.


Janell: I think it's absolutely necessary. Right. And that's you know, really important. And when you mentioned the word container, right? I mean that is part of what a therapist does, is we contain Yeah. Whatever is put on us, right? Yeah. At that time, which can change a lot during one 50 minute. our, you know, and how do we have capacity to hold all of that?

And I think that's where the, the practice too and what we're doing for ourselves. Consultation groups or exercise or meditating, different things of how can I expand my container, my capacity to hold all of this. And during the pandemic especially, right. For therapists. Yeah. I mean, it has been a lot.

And you know, and I think that's what led me to seek you out during that time. It's like, okay, I, you know, am my [00:26:00] capacity, you know, is maxed out. Yeah. And so I loved your approach on how to, you know, expand your capacity and so I, you know, and I think that's the place of, of being, coming at this from an authentic standpoint. I don't expect my clients to engage in any lifestyle self care stuff that I'm not doing myself. And you know, I always believed in the work that I do with my clients that I can only take them as far as I've gone myself.


Marcel: I always come back to this. I develop this kind of simple model to explain healing, and I use a lot of these everyday words like stabilization, regulation, capacity, resilience. perception, behavior, these sort of things. But it all comes back to this whole idea of how when we have a practice that's designed for us, [00:27:00] that is something that is on the level of the body and the breath, not just the mind, that it connects us more intimately to our system, to our and it gives us, it gives us the capacity and the, and it regulates us , but it gives you something much more deep. It gives you an even greater awareness of your connection to and your working from and with how you work from and with like your earth suit, for lack of a better word. , you know, your body. I mean, it's like earlier today I was, I was on a, on a call with, with someone and I said, you know, in many ways you can describe yoga as the practice of from moment to moment, assessing what's going on, going on in your environment, and then determining what the appropriate [00:28:00] response is for, with your earth suit. And if you're lining that up in ways that's coming from an awareness and a checking in, you are gonna be taxing your system much less. And you're just gonna, your technology is gonna function much more effectively. Your human technology.


Janell: Well, and I think that's unique to the type of yoga that teaching. Right. And prescribing. Because often if you go to, like all the yoga classes that I've done, you know, it, it's about, you know, extending yourself and, how can you do this difficult posture and, you know, and, and it's when you are. uncomfortable. Right. Or they're, because for other reason you don't have the awareness of what's happening internal and you know, the subtle things.

It's important to, I think for people to know that [00:29:00] what we're talking about is the yoga that Yeah.


Marcel: Yeah. And, and also even more importantly, yeah, we're talking about yoga therapy. .

which put in its simplest way of defining it, is using the, the knowledge and the tools of the body of, of knowledge, of yoga to help people with their own health issues or their own wellbeing or their own. Quality of life. So that's what that's adapted to.

And we are also talking about how we share this passion for basically what this podcast is about, healing and transformation and supporting people in that process. And yeah. And we're, we're talking about what, how a, having a personal practice. that that's given to you by someone that you're working with in a kind of therapeutic or clinical context.

When you said, , sometimes it's about getting into these poses because almost all the time, at least in the yoga therapy context, I'm [00:30:00] trying to help my clients develop a pattern of not pushing, because oftentimes a lot of the health issues and the challenges that they have actually come from that very pattern of pushing.

And so, you know, pushing can be helpful if it's done with some discernment and it's appropriate to the context. But if it's done often, without discernment, not appropriate to the context, it runs your system into the ground.


Janell: Well, and I think that's something that I've come to appreciate personally too.

It's cuz you know, in the beginning it's like, don't try so hard. Like this is not , you know, yoga as I've been doing Right, right. For years. This is something entirely different and. . The not pushing. Right. And, and knowing, and knowing when you are pushing too much. I mean, we've talked a lot about some of my Yeah.

Health issues and struggle with migraines and Yeah. Ability to push forward and do, do, do, because I've adapted Yeah. To being able to do [00:31:00] that. Yeah. But that may not necessarily be serving me


Marcel: So well said. Yeah. . Yeah. , I've worked with quite a number of clients who have had health challenges and as just, just to be able to function in a day to day way and get on with their life, they've had to kind of like force their system to do things and at a certain point , that's not sustainable.

So you figure out how to, how to do things, you know? , look at it differently. , I also mentor and teach yoga, and for some of these clients it's not so much just about like supporting them in terms of health issues or, or quality of life.

It's like, Using yoga as a tool to really change the system. Like one of the ways it can be kind of simply described is you can use yoga to, as I've been describing, [00:32:00] regulate the system, stabilize it, regulate it, and build capacity. But once you have that capacity, you can actually use the yoga to change the system so it functions differently.

I have found that a lot of people with yoga , We're so conditioned in the West to, to achieve on a technical level and improve and progress, but with respects to, to, to breath and attention to breath and movement and like what's often called prana or chi.

Generally speaking, if you're pushing, that's not really happening. , you want capacity. And the way I explain this is that, you know, like a yoga posture might have a function in terms of moving and breathing in that posture. It does something to your body. So there's a reason for using that posture, right?

So for example, it opens up the chest, or it it lets you work with your hips, et cetera. [00:33:00] But if the posture is too challenging, , it can almost be affecting you in an opposite way. Like maybe even stressing out that area or opening up the chest, for example, in a way that is too much, too fast.

So I think like with your practice and with everyone's practice, this notion of appropriate progression is so important, and that's why this is done where we meet regularly. Right. And, and I see you do the practice and you know, well,


Janell: I think that's true, like from in the psychotherapy world too.

Right. It's like you might have a. Clinician, you may have a sense of, of where you are going or you need to go, but if you go there too fast or if you, you know, jump in the deep end of the pool Yeah. Before they're really ready to swim there, it's not gonna work. And it can be more distressing for you.

It have the adverse effect. Right. So I think there is such an importance of being attuned [00:34:00] to. You know, is happening in the client and, and going at that pace. And, and I mean, and I do a lot of that. Of myself as I'm listening, is like, is now the right time? Like is it , is it now? Or should I hold back?

Yeah. You know, and making those decisions in the moment based on what you're experiencing. Right. What the therapist is experiencing. Yeah, absolutely. Also, yeah. Right. So I think there is the progression of it and people always want it to go faster. Right. But they're not ready for it to go faster. . Right,

Know? Yeah. Well, and there, there are no shortcuts. Right. And I think so many people want shortcuts right.

And if you can engage in the process and, and accept, you know, be excited that you may discover things along the way, and I think that's, you know, part of the beauty Yeah Of this practice and of psychotherapy is that you don't really know what you're gonna discover, but if you can be open,


Marcel: [00:35:00] That's really beautiful. I mean, I like to think that the reward I will have gotten. this work that I do is that I, I just got to come along for the ride.. Yeah.

Thank you so much Janell, this has been wonderful.


Janell: Oh, you're welcome. It's been wonderful for me too.


Marcel: So where can our listeners find out more about you and your work?


Janell: Okay, well, I have a website janellekalifey.com.


Marcel: Can you spell that please?


Janell: It's j a n e l l k a l i f e y.com

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