EPISODE THREE - TRANSFORMATION: WHAT IS IT? HOW DOES IT HAPPEN? WHY TRANSFORM?
Updated: Aug 25, 2022
“I don’t really want to do anything now without it being clear or conscious or aware of myself; I'm choosing to try to spend my life and time that way.”
― Carrie Heeter
PhD, Professor of Media and Information at Michigan State University &
Co-Founder of Yoga Mind Tools LLC
Episode 3: The Transformation of “Transformation”
A Conversation with Carrie Heeter
What is transformation and why is it relevant to your life? Why should you even care about that? How is transformation beneficial? Why is it “cool” to notice your unconscious patterns?
In this episode, Marcel invites scientist, professor and yoga practitioner, Carrie Heeter, to discuss her story of transformation in yoga practice and how this began to shift her perception of herself.
Listen as Carrie describes her initial reaction to the word “transformation,” (having zero interested in that for herself) and then once she began to have experiences within her own personal practice, she became something of a “transformation groupie.”
Carrie shares how the benefits of practice became a compounding positive feedback loop that keeps her coming back for more.
Here are some of the highlights of this conversation with Carrie that might be useful for your current practice or may be motivating to you to start a practice of your own:
How do people “change their minds?”
How information (intellect) is there to serve the experiential learning (in the body) and the experiential learning serves to support knowledge (and sometimes insight and wisdom as well). Is giving someone the “information” enough to help them transform?
Every individual has their own way and there is a common process that is universal within that unique journey of self-development and transformation.
Transformation is not a “thing” that’s going to be “done.”
Why is it beneficial to “know yourself?”
What does it mean to “see clearly”? And why didn’t that language make sense to Carrie before she began her practice?
What does “speaking up” and “clear communication” have to do with the process of transformation?
An external condition must be met, in order for me to be “ok”...How is this true for all of us in some circumstances?
If you haven’t yet listened to Episode 2, with Chase Bossart, please check it out! This is yet another episode that illustrates the importance of having a trusted guide or mentor in your path of transformation.
Carrie Heeter, PhD, is a professor of Media and Information at Michigan State University. She conducts scientific research on the process and outcomes of yoga-based meditation. She teaches graduate courses in serious game design and user experience research.
Carrie is also founding director of Yoga Mind Tools, and a certified yoga and meditation teacher. http://carrieheeter.com
Yoga Mind Tools
Yoga Mind Tools meditations support stress management, healing, personal growth and transformation.
Our meditations are custom-made for specific individuals, groups, and needs.
Yoga Mind Meditations are different from what most people think of as yoga and meditation. We use yogic tools of movement synchronized with breathing, attention, and unique meditation objects.
Carrie's recommendation for beginners to yoga practice:
For decades I attended and enjoyed “Gentle Yoga,” sometimes known as Viniyoga. Basically yoga taught by teachers trained in the lineage Marcel and I have studied (the tradition of Sri T. Krishnamacharya and T.K.V. Desikachar).
The core tenant of Viniyoga is to adapt the yoga to the person. These kind of group classes are wonderful.
And Yoga Therapy is best of all. Yoga practices completely adapted to you. Search for a Gentle Yoga teacher. Or find a certified yoga therapist near you.
Carrie's recommended resources for study:
"The Heart of Yoga" (by TKV Desikachar) book (available on Amazon or other online book sellers)
"Yoga Bodies, Yoga Mind" (by Chase Bossart) article available...
"Being There: Implications of Neuroscience and Meditation for Self-Presence in Virtual Worlds" (by Carrie Heeter and Marcel Allbritton) article available...
"Be sure to leave room for “cream.” (When my schedule and mind are filled to the brim, there is no room for awareness self-observation, doing differently, or “cream”)."
- Carrie Heeter
Doing Differently - Episode 3 - Transcript
*Please excuse any typos or imperfections. This transcript was created with AI software."
[00:00:00] Marcel: I'm Marcel. Albritton. Welcome to doing differently are change, healing and transformation important to you and your personal or work life. Join me and my guests. As we share the knowledge and tools to help you change, heal and transform every other week, we share a story, have a conversation and give you practice.
For tips, we help you see the whole picture and connect the dots. We share new ideas and perspectives we inform and support you and deliver value to you. For more information on the show, visit doing differently.com.
Carrie: So when we met, you were my yoga teacher and you were also a yoga therapist. I've had multiple sclerosis for 35 or 40 years. And so in a yoga class, I'm like this ridiculous body. I can't do anything. And I sort of flail around, but I'm fine with it. [00:01:00] Doesn't bother me. But, but you handed me your business card and said, you know, I can really help you with your Ms.
And I took the business card and I went home and I threw it out and that I don't need any help with M Ms. I'm just totally fine, but I loved the yoga class and I came back again. And the next day I overheard you talking to another student about starting a mind body foundation to explore the connection between the mind and body.
Marcel: I like the tack you're taking, which is first searing, what you were really interested in initially. And what motivated you before getting to how things changed around transformation?
Carrie: Yes. And mind body foundation. Oh my goodness. How interesting. I mean, I'm, I'm a researcher and I design games and I'm really interested in how the mind and body work.
And that just sounds so cool. I want, I
Marcel: want to know about this. You also just shared that there was [00:02:00] something about the experience that you liked.
Carrie: I loved, I loved the yoga class. It was really cool going to it and doing it the way, the way you taught it. Actually that's the only yoga I've ever known. But I realized that if I wanted to learn more about this, that I had to subject myself to yoga therapy in order to learn more about this mind, body connection.
So it was like, all right, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to do this thing. Um, I'm fine. I don't need yoga therapy. There's nothing about me that needs to change, but I want to learn about this cool stuff. So I'm going to do that.
Marcel: I have a yoga therapist mindset and I'm also a yoga teacher. Most of my students that I teach yoga to initially came to me for yoga therapy.
So that's how it started, meaning that they wanted some help with some kind of health issue. They were having either, uh, Physiologically physically or psychologically anxiety, depression, any of these sorts of things. And what [00:03:00] happened was that I would help them with that and then it would get better. And then at a certain point, They had had the practices and been doing them for a long time.
So I would say, are you interested in learning about this and they'd say, well, yeah,
Carrie: right. You're actually teaching transformation using the science and system of yoga.
Marcel: Yeah. Well, let's unpack this. What we're getting at is initially we both had some. Perceptions about what we were doing together and what the focus was and what we were interested in.
Carrie: Absolutely. And, and so my whole focus was, this is so interesting. I want to learn about it, teach me, so you couldn't even get past, as you inhale, raise your arms up from the front without me going, how does that work? What's going on? This is so cool. Right? So, so there was th th this was like omnipresent of this is fascinating and that's it.
And Carrie is fine. I don't actually need your help. On the other hand. That first session after the [00:04:00] intake, you gave me a personal practice, tailored to what you had observed in that first session. And I did it, and I knew from that moment that I was hooked that and I have done that every day for the last eight years with the exception of the morning when I broke my arm and my body knew that it was the right thing and I was doing it.
I still thought I was fine and didn't need to change, but I was on a path that wasn't going to veer.
Marcel: I'll say more about this as Carrie continues to share her story, it's really about her experiences, how she relates to transformation and her perception of what she thought it was in the beginning and what she thinks of it.
Now, the thing that, uh, really important to set the stage for a lot of what we're talking about is when you're working with yoga or when you're studying yoga. And not just yoga, but any kind of a mind training or deep personal practice. The, the main goal of it is to, to know your yourself [00:05:00] more deeply and to see more clearly.
And I guess you could probably, if you think about it for a few seconds, understand why both of them are so important. If you don't know yourself very well, it's going to be really hard to see clearly because you're seeing from yourself. So in essence, those two are intertwined. So Carrie was, I just want to learn this, so just teach me, but there's this other part of, of knowing yourself?
Carrie: I didn't want to know myself. I wanted to know how minds and bodies work together. And that's so interesting. So I've had Ms for 30 some years. I have all sorts of accumulated damage in that, but I'm fine. My managing it. I love my job. Things are going great. And I just want to want to learn, but I had to come up with something to say, That I wanted to do the yoga therapy for.
So I said, well, you know, there is this matter of always feeling like there's a gun pointed at my head, my job, I'm working seven hours a day, seven days a week, 80 hours a week, at least. And, and there's just always that [00:06:00] pressures. If there could be a little bit less of that, I guess that's what we could work on, but I'm fine.
And my job is great in life is wonderful. I had no sense of wanting to see clearly or transforming at that
Marcel: time. When you said you didn't want to know yourself, did you feel that you did know yourself already or was it just that you, you weren't into it?
Carrie: That vocabulary wasn't in my way of thinking it w it didn't even make any sense.
I didn't realize there was a self to know. And I also didn't realize that my mind and body were unusually disconnected, which is really hilarious in retrospect, because what, why was, what, what hooked me? What I was so fascinated by is, oh, what's the connection between the mind and body, because I was, had found a way to live with Ms.
Where I was able to try to completely block. Anything. I was feeling physically enforced my mind to operate despite that. Right. So, so I was like the Supreme disconnect between mind and body and [00:07:00] completely unselfaware, but I was fine.
Marcel: So, so what was the next part after we started working with you, feeling like the pressure you felt with your job and demands.
Carrie: Well, it's, it's, it's a relentless job and there's always more to do than can possibly get done. So I'm a research scientist and an experienced designer in all sorts of different media. And, and so part of why I want to understand mind, body connections is to make better experiences for people, which actually I'm doing now in meditation.
So as I, as I described it, there's this always this gun pointing at my head. And so the practice that you gave me. It was actually very devious because it included absolutely nothing that required any effort. Which was very hard for me because I'm really good at trying hard, but there was no trying in it, which was just, just weird.
But I did it and it felt really good.
Marcel: I remember like there was this kind of dance we played with each [00:08:00] other in terms of you were really motivated to learn. You wanted to learn how this stuff works and how to use it. The deal with studying this kind of stuff is you can't really, it's not going to be taught to you if you're not also.
Working with your own earth suit, your own organic container so that it can effectively hold the knowledge. So that, like, remember, I went back to the whole idea is to know yourself and to see clearly. So if you learn a lot of these deep techniques, but you're not really understanding yourself or seeing clearly, then it can be a lot of, of problems, a lot of complications.
But I remember us kind of always. Almost accommodating each other. It's
Carrie: experiential, not informational. And so it's not something that you can read to know how it works. You have to live it. And I, I could tell that [00:09:00] as it went along, it was, it was very frustrating. Would you would tell me, well, in seven years you'll really know this, some of the transformations that began to happen and I still wasn't anywhere close to using that word at that time was.
I had a lot of brain fog where it was just really hard to sync. And despite that I would sit at my desk and just try really hard. And it, it was really actually quite miserable looking back on it, but that was just how I managed to get the work done. And one of the things was my body began to change by doing the practice regularly.
And my brain began to clear up some. So that that was easier. And then it actually occurred to me to not just push through, to actually stop and take a break for 10 minutes or take a nap and come back to it or go for a walk. So, so like really silly little thing of why just keep doing the same thing the same way all the time, when it would be so much [00:10:00] more productive to actually pause and come back instead of push when pushing isn't working.
Marcel: So as a result of doing the practice. There were some changes in your behaviors, but there also started to be some changes in your perception about your awareness of how you were working and how you were doing things and how that would make you feel. I would
Carrie: say yes. So the practice was beginning to change how my body and system worked, which was improving how my brain was actually operating.
And then sort of at the awareness level, it was noticing, oh, I'm sitting here trying to think all the time and that's not very effective. Right? So this awareness is starting to come as well as the physical system changes and things like that. So you're starting to get my cycle going here. And so just very gradual, huh?
Maybe there, maybe I can get more done if I do it a little bit differently.
Marcel: I [00:11:00] remember the frustration and different times that you were having, because one of the things that Carrie didn't know this at the time, but she knows it very clearly now is that Carrie was talked about how this is a experiential process, not an informational one, meaning the information is to serve the experience.
It's not the other way around the other part of all. This is that until you've had certain experiences. You're really not actually able to understand certain principles, meaning you actually have to go through some of these experiences. And then once you've had them, you are able then to actually understand the information.
So in a way, it's the structured experiences that actually allow you to comprehend the information. So it is very much an experiential process
Carrie: and everybody has their own personal journey with it, which is the only way it can happen. So one of the things that came sort of next for [00:12:00] me is I figured out how to turn off.
Uh, what I now know is some of the stress response that I was feeling from the gun pointed to my head. So I was starting to see inside a bit more. And I was noticing what that stress felt like. This was another thing you had to put up with for awhile while I was doing that thing. Oh, look, I can stop my stress without changing my behavior without transforming, just to block out that part of the feeling.
Marcel: it's different for every individual person. But what you described is exactly what everyone does is we have certain patterns or behaviors. That we use that help us deal with stuff and get stuff done. And those patterns or behaviors have some side effects that cause other complications, it was clear to me because I had been through that experience myself and I could see what was happening.
And part of what I was trying to do was support your own experiential. [00:13:00] Practice so that you could move towards a different way.
Carrie: So a while into this, again, maybe after about a year I had, one of the realizations I had was that I was the one holding the gun that was pointed at my head all the time. Right.
That it wasn't the system that was doing it. The system was there and certainly facilitated me, picking it up and pointing it at myself. But that. I was, I was putting the pressure on me. So part of this whole journey is this endless series of realizations of seeing what you're doing, how you're operating.
And so that, that was, that was one of the big ones in terms of what I'd first come in with is like, this is I'm really doing this to myself. And, and that was, that was really interesting. And that was, that was maybe, I mean, each of these are sort of mini transformations, but at this point I'm hooked. It's like, Okay.
I see why it's good to see patterns. I
Marcel: think also your experience, there were incremental steps to it. [00:14:00] And in a way, what was happening was you were starting to see some benefits of that newer kind of approach or perspective to being in the world or to managing things for yourself. It has to be proofed by the individual person in their experiences.
They start to see, oh, okay. This is going to be useful for me. But however, over time, as you engaged in the practice, you started to have different experiences and to begin to have a different relationship with the motivation as well as the benefit. So
Carrie: what was happening was that a window into myself was opening more and more.
And it's, uh, I would now describe myself as a transformation addict. As one who came in with absolutely no interest in that. And now it's like so interesting and so cool. And I keep seeing. A much huger world inside and much more awareness [00:15:00] of both what I'm doing internally and how in relationships and in conversations and in work and in the world, all these, I mean, there's just, there's just so much more to see and so much more to be,
Marcel: but it's beautiful to hear you describe that because I had similar experiences.
If I could just share at this point in our, in our conversation, when I initially started studying this stuff, There was part of me that was studying it because I was fascinated with it, but the larger part of me was studying it because I was suffering and I needed some help. But as I began to heal more from my suffering, the suffering motivation was replaced by fascination, motivation and appreciation and just deep interest in it.
So you started to actually understand why, at some point I talked about transformation so much.
Carrie: Well, I, I started to see what [00:16:00] was meant by seeing clearly. I started to be able to see, I didn't know why it was cool to see what your patterns are. And then I started being able to notice patterns of how I respond and how I, how I act.
There were some really annoying steps along the way. Like I had to start going to bed earlier and getting more sleep when you're watching what's happening in your behaviors and in your world, some things just become. Obvious and it's, you can't keep doing
Marcel: it. I love what you just said when you're watching your behaviors and what's happening in your world, some things just become obvious and you can't keep doing it.
You know, so much of this whole process is about the quality of attention internally and externally. The quality of attention, both internally and externally. And so it's not just about paying attention to what's going on outside of you, but it's checking [00:17:00] how you're understanding and relating to it. And as you do it more and more, it's kind of cumulative.
You start to be able to see more broadly and more deeply into yourself. And of course, you're also working with. Refining your system and calming your mind and trying to have more and more behaviors in your life that are supportive rather than draining. And as a result, you have more capacity. So you can see, you can see a lot more.
Carrie: There's kind of no limit to the situations and circumstances that are available for observation, for noticing. And for clarity, whether it's a conversation with distant loved ones or a meeting or a podcast, or, or, or just doing your work or writing something, all, all of this is how you're operating and whether you're just sort of being a robot without just doing sort of, I don't know, [00:18:00] coming from the right place.
Sounds wrong. There's some better way to say that, but I don't really want to do anything now without it. Being clear or conscious or aware of myself and choosing to spend my life in time. That way.
Marcel: I think also as you do the work, you understand more about yourself on a gross level. There's less uncertainty, but on a subtle level, it's, there's more uncertainty.
There's a lot of complexity, you know, it just, everything becomes more like you're connecting more and more dots. You're seeing more and more. It's really like you're, you're adding another element, our part to your normal daily life. You know, usually it's just about who we are and what our circumstances are, but with the yoga, it adds in another part, which is where you're continually in real time, observing and understanding and working [00:19:00] from, and to also what's going on inside of yourself, like watching your thoughts in your emotions, watching your feelings, and you're more and more able to actually work from that often times.
Carrie: So another example is whenever somebody around me is upset or hurt or unhappy in any way, I go to comfort them right away and try to take care of it and make everything better. And when you're in a yoga teacher training session with 30 people and. Part of the whole point is people go through stuff and have realizations that are upset.
You're like very busy, comforting everybody around the room and something good. And it took me years to notice. Not that it's bad to be compassionate and want and hope people feel better, but I needed everybody to be okay. So I was okay. Right. That w that's how so? I was safe. So my parents would fight a lot when I was very young and that was my whole [00:20:00] world would be unstable.
Right. So I would try to keep them from fighting and make them okay. And so I have this whole pattern of stopping anybody, if they're a little bit upset and trying to help fate
Marcel: would have it as me, um, guiding you as a teacher in this. I also had. Yes, hypervigilance and I'd always pick up everything around me.
And so I was seeing that in you, but I understood it quite well because I was working with it in myself. What really stood out to me about what you just shared was the way you expressed that in order for me to be comfortable or okay. There was an external condition that had to be met. And that external condition is something you didn't have very much control over.
So that makes it really challenging because there's always going to be, what I experienced from my hypervigilance is there was always conflict around me and some unrest and it really would [00:21:00] hijack me in that situation. It kind
Carrie: of ties back into speaking up or saying anything that might cause conflict.
And, and so there's a, uh, a point at which sometimes it's good to express something that you're feeling. Even if it's upsetting to the other person. And I would always damp that down, no, stop that as opposed to productive conflict or productive expression. And so there's more discernment now of, okay, you're doing your thing.
It's not my responsibility to change it. I have lots of compassion and I can help if it's appropriate, but it's okay for things to escalate some and it can be healing.
Marcel: The saying came to me in, in doing a lot of this work in the saying is basically where you're coming from is just as important as what you're doing.
Or in a way you could say how you're relating to something is just as [00:22:00] important as what is happening. Our relationship to something really colors and flavors. Our actions and behaviors and the outcomes of the situation in, in talking about the transformation here now in your shift in relationship to it, where are we right now?
Are we in the middle? Uh, are we towards the, the end of this experience?
Carrie: Are you referring to my transformation? And it's not a thing that's going to be done, right? It, they love of growing and changing. And I hope to transform every day for the rest of my life. And so it, I don't ever want it to stop. I now look for opportunities to, to do things differently or better, or, or to, to see more.
Marcel: Yeah. So in a way, something that you weren't even that interested in is now one of the lenses through which you look at and [00:23:00] experience things. Absolutely. What is transformation for you at this point?
Carrie: The short answer is in the beginning, transformation was a silly woo word that had no personal relevance to me.
And then it became like a necessary evil to, in order to learn about this stuff. I had to do it. So it was an obligation to do it. And now it's the guiding principle of how to live.
Marcel: Wow. That is really powerful. That transformation right there.
Carrie: So during, for seven of these eight years, I've been working on starting a company, which you know, well, since you are working on this with me, and that, that whole process has been changing.
Along with me and with us as we transform. And so I love those moments when you feel like the whole world looks different and I have a whole new approach [00:24:00] transformations happen like ideally every day or maybe every week or so. So there's little ones and big ones, but, but I feel. Like in the work planning, things have just come together and integrated.
And instead of like, it has been kind of all along this thing I have to do because it's a business for other people, something has happened. So that now, as I'm thinking about it, it's, it's coming from me and it's what I want to devote my life to. And I suddenly get it in a whole different way. Those words of get it in a whole different way.
That that is the transformation, a whole different way. The whole.
Marcel: Process of moving from it being kind of an external thing that you're just trying to have at work to something where it's internally integrated with you and you're able to stay in your space and come from a place when you're working with it.
That's aligned that connected. That's like coherent. [00:25:00] It's different for everyone. But my experience has been, if I'm able to stay in my space, I'm able to listen more and learn more and react less and take a lot more stuff in. And what I say, how I communicate is much more powerful. It's much more grounded as much more centered.
Carrie: I love what you say about communicating. That's one of the things that happens along the transformation journey, at least it happened for me is that I find myself saying things that I would never have said. Speaking, speaking up. Right in ways that I surprise me and also feel appropriate.
Marcel: I have observed that in people's development, the clearest indicator of solid progress is the ability to communicate clearly from themselves, for themselves.
When people are able to start doing this, that's when things are cumulatively coming [00:26:00] together. Because that's like the indicator that everything is starting to get. Yeah. So
Carrie: what was, what were some of the biggest challenges for you in guiding my transformation journey?
Marcel: My answer would firstly be the most important thing is it's the same thing you're having to do.
It's the same thing I'm having to do. You have to know yourself and see, clearly the hardest thing is continually remembering that my patterns and behaviors and personality. Is a lens that I see through. And if I'm able to be aware of that, I can adjust for it. I can see it when it's happening. This has been one of the most profound experiences for me in terms of whole apprenticeship in yoga and studying deeply what someone over many, many years in my own development.
So I can be a yoga teacher or yoga therapist. And what's so profound is. The structured experiences. There's an interesting [00:27:00] old saying about students and their students that are eager and they're students that are ready. You were very eager, but like any person that's starting something out, there's a certain progression you have to go through and you're not actually in control of it.
It's not a case where if you work harder and do more, you can necessarily move faster. One of my favorite sayings is you can't project management, this stuff,
Carrie: not eager to transform. I was eager to learn
Marcel: exactly. That's what I mean, you were eager to learn. And one of the things that was challenging for me is I knew that the transformation was the key.
To effectively learning. I mean, it's what you do when you're helping people. You're you're work is to be focused on them as much as possible, but you can't help, but sometimes your stuff comes up and you and I have had, I mean, because we've [00:28:00] worked so closely and because we've worked in many different roles together, there's been all these interesting challenges.
And I think we've done just wonderful jobs at working with that without a lot of trials and tribulations as is normal. What was helpful is that I had been taken through the process before. So I could see you moving through it in yoga therapy, you work with people sometimes, and you, you bring them to a, kind of a new place where their patterns are different.
The way they're relating to their challenge is different, but they still can't see themselves operating differently in the future. So they're like, they, they don't have a way to see, well, how's that going to work out? And you can actually see them changing and how they will be different. And you want to say, well, it's going to be different for you because you're going to be different.
And they're like,
Carrie: huh? We also have doctorates in the same field. So it's clear that we have a lot of similar fascinations and, you know, along the way I read everything, I could get my [00:29:00] hands on related to yoga and yoga therapy and this lineage and all that kind of thing. And you kept telling me no, don't read things, just have experiences.
So therefore I turned to research. And I read thousands of research articles about meditation and yoga and started doing my own research. So I found ways around it. And
Marcel: well, this is what we do, we're sneaky, right? So we were like, no, I am not going to change that identification. And that deep patterning, I am going to do this without changing it and show you that I don't need to.
Carrie: But when the river has to take a different path, It can be very beneficial. Right. So it's very useful that I've read those 2000 articles. Right. So I'm connected with the academic perspectives on these things, but also the experiential. So it's a, it's a very good, yeah.
Marcel: So the way I think of it, carry it in our, in our lineage.
There's this idea of the five dimensions, the body, the breath, [00:30:00] the intellect, the personality, and the emotions. And a lot of times I think of it's such a helpful model because each individual person is weighted in different ways with those dimensions and the weighting of those dimensions, as opposed to being what's most appropriate for that individual often are a reflection of the experiences and patterns and behaviors that they've accumulated.
And so you're actually wanting to change yourself. To where the weight of the different dimensions is what's right. So supportive for you in terms of what you're doing. Like for example, you're a researcher, you're a scholar, it's part of who you are. And it's a very big part of how your intellect works, but actually it's a supportive aspect of yoga and studying yoga.
It's not. One of the most essential, in [00:31:00] fact, being too intellectual can cause you not to understand a lot of things because it is so experiential. So in other words, the point is the intellect is in the service of the experiences, not the other way around. And I also got a doctorate and I learned to lead from that place.
And actually I took about 10 years to reverse out of a lot of that conditioning. So I can be more effective in what I'm doing. So, instead of just doing things, the way you're shaped, you start to it's like what you were talking about earlier, you start to design the way you're wired, so it can be most helpful to you.
In the experiences you're having, or I should say you start to influence the way you're wired,
Carrie: cycling back to where we kind of began this conversation where I was fascinated in studying the abstract mind, body connection. Yeah. And was the person whose mind and body were [00:32:00] extremely disconnected where I was managing the body too, to be ignored so that my mind could operate.
I would say that now I actually have a very strong mind body connection, thanks to these years of practice. And it's a, it's a whole different system to be living in and to be operating
Marcel: Carrie. This was so wonderful. I love that. We get to talk about. These experiences, and we're doing this in a way that it's can best be shared in that we're coming from the experiences first and then bringing in the information.